tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7217199.post115396470584055235..comments2024-03-24T11:30:08.199-07:00Comments on Can you believe?: On being present where we areJohan Maurerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13771067774042071617noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7217199.post-1154453564386521602006-08-01T10:32:00.000-07:002006-08-01T10:32:00.000-07:00A key question has indeed been raised. I always t...A key question has indeed been raised. I always try to recall that Jesus said he had overcome the world. Even though it may not look like that, I must live in the confidence that He has indeed.<BR/><BR/>We need to actively work that God's kingdom may come on earth. It is deep faith that cen keep us from burning out in that work amidst all the evil we see. It is absolutely essential that the activist and devotional be kept together.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7217199.post-1154439417825002282006-08-01T06:36:00.000-07:002006-08-01T06:36:00.000-07:00I'm not sure that this is an either/or proposition...I'm not sure that this is an either/or proposition: activism vs quietism.<BR/><BR/>I'm in the process of reading Paul Loeb's <I>Soul of a Citizen: Living With Conviction in a Cynical Time</I>. A point that he makes that really hits home with me is that we make our road by walking when it comes to activism. We start with small things, maybe, such as writing letters to our Congresspersons or newspapers. Eventually we may join a peace group and participate in demonstrations or (my preference) silent vigils. Maybe we can take the real big step of tax resistance (I haven't yet). Maybe we can find a way --a time-honored Quaker way, I think-- of helping the victims of violence and war.<BR/><BR/>The point is well taken, I believe, by those who have pointed out that many, many activists act of anger. But Loeb reminds us that we are all "wounded healers" (Henri Nouwen's expression).<BR/><BR/>I think that Quakers can --if we feel so led-- ease little by little into activism, doing what we can, when we can, and stretching ourselves to do more when possible. Loeb uses Rosa Parks as a good example, reminding us that she had already been involved in other civil rights activities that sort of perpared her to take that big step of not giving up her seat on the bus.<BR/><BR/>Deepak Chopra also makes says, very beautifully: <BR/><BR/><I>" Let us not demand of ourselves that we alone must be the agent of change. In a fire brigade everyone passes along a bucket, but only the last person puts out the fire. None of us know where we stand in line. We may be here simply to pass a bucket; we may be called on to play a major role. In either case, all we can do is think, act, and say. Let us direct our thoughts, words, and actions to peace. That is all we can do. Let the results be what they will be."</I><BR/><BR/>Where is Peace in a Time of War?<BR/>http://www.intentblog.com/archives/2006/07/where_is_peace.html<BR/><BR/>When encountering an angry, strident activist, we need to somehow realize that that person is doing the best he/she can to put his/her convictions into practice. <BR/><BR/>And all we can do is continue to model, as best we can, a Quaker way.liberatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01914684727974943316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7217199.post-1154236641378979422006-07-29T22:17:00.000-07:002006-07-29T22:17:00.000-07:00Sorry for this very quick comment Johan. Activism...Sorry for this very quick comment Johan. Activism comes in two forms: grassroot and political. Levi Coffin stands for the former and John Brown the latter. The former depends on civil societies, while the latter on civil governments.<BR/><BR/>My worries about mixing spirituality with politics is that once the door is open it is opened to all kinds of people, including murderous fanatics such as John Calvin and Ulrich Zwingli, who held the Scriptures on the left hands and swords on their right. <BR/><BR/>That is why today many Southern Baptist churches chose to reaffirm their historical witness for Church-State separation, and joined the politically moderate Cooperative Baptist Fellowship. <BR/><BR/>John Brown was on the right side of history. But do we want to be like him??James Changhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03272900145898787842noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7217199.post-1154181118240863742006-07-29T06:51:00.000-07:002006-07-29T06:51:00.000-07:00As I read your words, I immediately am reminded of...As I read your words, I immediately am reminded of how we are all interconnected. Buying water in a plastic bottle in a Walmart in Hartford, Connecticut has local, regional, national and global ramifications. <BR/><BR/>A common practice of many of progressive liberals (religious and otherwise) is to trash the Bush administration with the false assumption that we have actually accomplished something. But how many times to do I vote for Bush and company with the foods I eat, the products I buy, the places where I do business--the lifestyle I denabd for myself and my family?<BR/><BR/>Love, like violence and oppression, comes in myriad forms. <BR/><BR/>I think of the powerful words of <A HREF="http://a_musing.blogspot.com/2006/06/who-is-marvin.html" REL="nofollow">Marvin Bloom</A> when he recounted <A HREF="http://a_musing.blogspot.com/2006/01/marvins-crazy-church-experience.html" REL="nofollow">a recent incident</A> in his church when the congregation seeing the minister suffering from the sudden onset of a stroke, mistook his severe symptoms for a move of the Spirit. In reflection Marvin asked, "How can we be standing there worshipping Jesus with a man dying right in front of us?"Peterson Toscanohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18189029949905668568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7217199.post-1154170578863901772006-07-29T03:56:00.000-07:002006-07-29T03:56:00.000-07:00Johan,I hear you. I apologize for the first, heady...Johan,<BR/><BR/>I hear you. I apologize for the first, heady response, which actually treated your post with less seriousness than it deserved—what is more serious than the question of what to do when your heart is breaking?<BR/><BR/>I am still struggling with this. Early in my work with injured migrant workers and abused children I was furious with God, who seemed to have walked out on them. I made it clear to God that I thought he (pronoun for convenience) was not doing his work, and that I was going ahead with doing the parts of it I could pick up whether he liked it or not. I ended up queasy, exhausted, and deeply discouraged by my evident failures, by the harm that I could not prevent (at least, had not prevented) to the people I meant to serve, and by my own pettiness and bitterness as well. So I am thrown back on the need to become a channel for the Spirit as I try to reach out to the people around me, and try to reduce the ways in which my life requires war and exploitation of people and the earth. That is another hard blow for me—it is easy to be angry at Bush and Cheney, harder to realize that my way of living is based on using cheap energy which can only be obtained, briefly, by war and major pollution, and soon will be altogether unobtainable; that I am ongoingly involved in the evil that I wish to expose. Without some measure of unity with God I can’t constructively face the siffering around me or my own complicity in it. <BR/><BR/>So thanks, again, for bringing up the two halves of what needs to be done. When they’re separated I think activism degenerates either into despair or into self-righteous anger, and spiritual life into a selfish search for comfort, salvation, purity or enlightenment. God knows that, even when I try to hold the two in balance, I fall into both errors often enough. <BR/><BR/>Joanna Hoyt<BR/><BR/>p.s. I couldn't make your link to the pamphlet work.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7217199.post-1154105284376791382006-07-28T09:48:00.000-07:002006-07-28T09:48:00.000-07:00Chris and Joanna--thank you for treating this post...Chris and Joanna--thank you for treating this post with more seriousness than it might have deserved. The truth is that the first version of the first few paragraphs was dripping with sarcasm, which I tried to remove. Maybe I should have left a bit more in.<BR/><BR/>One of the questions I didn't address directly, but which is probably the main question I'm asking between the lines, is "what is a believer to do when her or his heart is breaking?" On some level I know perfectly well that s*** happens, and that reality doesn't threaten my faith. (The Bible openly grapples with a huge contradiction: Innocent people will be protected by God, it says in a bunch of places, but turn the page and you find evil people being denounced for what they do to innocent people. Presumably those innocent people suffered despite God's protection.) On another level, every new agony shakes me deeply.<BR/><BR/>Thanks to both of you for keeping me company.Johan Maurerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13771067774042071617noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7217199.post-1154102476828509842006-07-28T09:01:00.000-07:002006-07-28T09:01:00.000-07:00Thank you for bringing up these vital questions.I ...Thank you for bringing up these vital questions.<BR/><BR/>I also experience some tension between focusing on abiding constantly in the Spirit, and focusing on creating hope or justice in the world around me; certainly I have sometimes flung myself into the latter as a way to avoid necessary work on the former; but I know that the two calls are inseparable, that being answerable to my neighbors necessarily sends me back to seek God, and being answerable to God necessarily sends me back to reach out to my neighbors. <BR/><BR/>It seems to me that there is another division that is present both among those who work for social justice and among those who work for spiritual grounding. We can focus on figuring out what everyone ought to be doing, and then on trying to get them to do it, or on faithfully doing what we ourselves (as individuals and as communities) are called to do. It seems to me that the first approach fosters division between those who emphasize activism and those who emphasize devotion, and between people within each group who disagree about the right response to violence or the right understanding of scriptural authority, and the second approach leads into unity on a more profound level.<BR/><BR/>I would agree wholeheartedly with the statement that we are called to be faithful not successful, but generally I have not found faithfulness to be comfortable. Since I believe that war destroys the body of God, I can’t pay war taxes, hence I can’t have a substantial income; and I have to look at all the ways in which my economic life, and my way of dealing weith those who infuriate me, nurtures the seeds of war. Since I believe that we are called to die to ourselves and let God live in us, I have to repeatedly pry myself loose from self-centered daydreams, worries, self-justifications or attempts to cling to personal security. <BR/><BR/>I think that in the practice of faithfulness we may be given prophetic messages which call others to accountability, and we must give them; but when God’s hand is not unmistakably laid on us, I think we need to concentrate our human effort and good will on bringing our own (personal and corporate) lives into faithfulness. <BR/><BR/>JoannaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7217199.post-1154029466304289842006-07-27T12:44:00.000-07:002006-07-27T12:44:00.000-07:00Johan,I have so many half-thoughts I'm not sure wh...Johan,<BR/><BR/>I have so many half-thoughts I'm not sure where to begin, or whether I should. You raise mighty important questions.<BR/><BR/>I like the way you talk about bringing together "devotional" and "activist" Quakers. It's also interesting to know that, for you, the crossover conversations have been happening for a year, five years. That's not so true for many of us -- or at least for myself -- who've been more isolated in our monthly or yearly meetings until the blogs came along.<BR/><BR/>So here's an example of some exposing we've been trying to do. Our meeting has been holding a very public <A HREF="http://sfciviccenter.blogspot.com/2006/07/no-war-in-iran.html" REL="nofollow">peace vigil</A> outside the Federal office building in San Francisco -- now in concert with AFSC, Buddhists, and Episcopalians -- since <B>October 2001.</B> What impact has it had? I know it's made for some big changes in a few individuals who have participated faithfully. It's probably reached many souls who pass by. And of course I'm not in a position to know if it's had any larger impact. Nothing significant that I can detect with our Congressional Representative, the House Minority Leader, Nancy Pelosi, at least.<BR/><BR/>So, I wonder: On the one hand, is our meeting too comfortable with this faithful but small witness? On the other hand, absent a closer and more persistent collaboration within our meeting community, how can we act in such a way that provides a clear and understandable testimony to our understanding of Truth?<BR/><BR/>The challenge is carrying on the conversations with each other and at the same time seeking ways to expose, expose, expose.<BR/><BR/>Finally, I know some Quakers who say, "It's not for us to judge what is successful, our job is to be faithful." I agree, and I <I>also</I> think that such an attitude is too often used to justify comfortable activism that lets us off the hook, "because we were faithful," when what the world needs is some really successful organizing for change. I don't think being faithful and having an impact are necessarily contradictions.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for raising these really important points.<BR/><BR/>-- Chris M.<BR/><A HREF="http://chrismsf.blogspot.com" REL="nofollow">Tables, Chairs & Oaken Chests</A>Chris M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/05125825966802002625noreply@blogger.com