tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7217199.post6788989873024204717..comments2024-03-07T02:36:52.536-08:00Comments on Can you believe?: Cynicism and truthJohan Maurerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13771067774042071617noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7217199.post-14184880014785847922012-08-08T00:21:11.533-07:002012-08-08T00:21:11.533-07:00Thanks for this comment Johan. For me, your questi...Thanks for this comment Johan. For me, your questions about "filtering out anyone who is actually ready for passionate Christian faith lived out in a trustworthy setting" and whether folks are serious about being communities ready to receive and nurture people in faith for life are really exciting and challenging, because that is exactly what I have been struggling with as someone who is passionately christian amongst Friends. <br /><br />I haven't quite left British Friends yet, and perhaps I <br />won't, though I feel more at home in the world Family of Friends than in Britain YM at times. I hope that stories of those who like me have gained a lot of help from the world family and scripture will be included. I think I am almost mature enough to have got over some of the worse experiences I've had.<br /><br />I'm excited by the vision of these 'whoosh' Friends. A hopeful feature amongst British Friends at the moment - I've been favourably impressed by the Equipping for Ministry programme at Woodbrooke, which I graduated from at the beginning of this year. I think it has the potential to provide a healthy foundation for discipleship - Tim P. Ashworth's and Helen Rowlands' contributions to the teaching really stood out for me.<br /><br />British Friends went through a big shift in the last century. I was told that in 1950 80% of Friends were born into Quaker families, and in 2000 only 20%. There's real work to be done in learning how to articulate the lessons that still ring through in the lives of those deeply christian, gently joyful Friends (and now mainly elderly) who led me towards Jesus among Friends. <br /><br />I have come across vocal new-comer Friends - certain that Quakers are all about "spiritual diversity": because I thought it was the opposite - human diversity drawn together in one Holy Spirit, towards God. I am hoping, and praying, that we might be led rightly. Thanks for your input. :)Alice Y.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16267449289432878102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7217199.post-61245674466463834852012-08-05T23:05:34.459-07:002012-08-05T23:05:34.459-07:00Like Johan, I cannot say three cheers for British ...Like Johan, I cannot say three cheers for British Quakers, for I think that some of their marketing may indeed be dishonest. I am more concerned with dishonest marketing of liberal Quakerism right here in North America, my own part of the world.<br />To be blunt, I do not believe that one can be a Quaker and mot be, at least in some sense, a Christian.<br /> I remember my first Sunday school teacher. the late Dean Yingling, a liberal Christian Friend if there ever was one (and a convinced former Baptist). He taught the Bible, especially the <br />gospels, so well that I can remember it to this day. To his mind, I'm sure, there was no difference between being a Friend<br />(of Jesus) and being Christian.<br />They were two sides of one coin.<br />I think that this kind of thinking might well replace our verbosity.<br /> Jeremy MottJeremy Mottnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7217199.post-22486200232532655592012-08-05T17:25:03.455-07:002012-08-05T17:25:03.455-07:00I guess I am saying that the "baby" is t...I guess I am saying that the "baby" is the transforming power of the Spirit that consumed Jesus of Nazareth. Every other notion is the "bath water". To understand this is to understand liberal Quakerism and the important place it could have in carrying out the work of the living Christ in the modern world. <br /><br />Jesus said "by their fruits you will know them". In Matthew, Jesus also identified as "sheep" those who had those "fruits" - yet did not know him by name.<br /><br />I say three cheers for British Quakers. God is like water. He will seep into the hearts of those who respond, through whatever vehicle provides an opening.Howard Brodnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7217199.post-74580811473681963012012-08-05T15:55:44.919-07:002012-08-05T15:55:44.919-07:00Howard: Thank you for your helpful comments. My ov...Howard: Thank you for your helpful comments. My overheated rhetoric aside, I've not actually decided anything, and haven't concluded that Jesus's vision has been abandoned. I think the conversation between those who claim to follow Jesus as a visionary and those who claim to follow Jesus as the living head of the church is never a vain conversation. I hope that our service to each other is, at least in part, to keep each other honest. Liberal Friends and liberal Christians probably tend not to understand how secular intellectual fashions can quietly subvert faith; evangelical Christians too often fall in love with their own cliches and forget the substance.<br /><br />British Friends used to sell an outreach poster that said something like "Tired of institutional religion? Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater." Liberal and evangelical counterfeits alike tend to figure out how to improve the bathwater, and end up forgetting the Baby.Johan Maurerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13771067774042071617noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7217199.post-77371488263488562932012-08-05T15:43:22.496-07:002012-08-05T15:43:22.496-07:00Jeremy: You're right, they're intentionall...Jeremy: You're right, they're intentionally loaded questions, but they're honestly intended to provoke a response. I'm really really concerned that there is both error and unacknowledged elitism in some of what's being represented as Quakerism--but as I've said before, I don't get to decide <a href="http://johanpdx.blogspot.com/2010/07/quakers-believe-that.html" rel="nofollow">who owns the Quaker brand</a>, so I'd like to provoke a conversation.<br /><br />The heart of my concern about honesty is the claim that marketing to the skeptical is actually "radical." Most of Western Europe is fashionably post-Christian. I would love for Friends to find a new equivalent of the "provocative innocency" with which early Friends evangelized a nominally-Christian society. Now at last the post-Christian environment allows us to present Jesus and his good news stripped of societal privilege. The discipleship of nonviolence, simplicity, leadership based on spiritual gifts rather than social status, and Spirit-driven church governance--all of what we call the "testimonies"--can now win converts on its own merits. These are signs and wonders, arguably miraculous in this scarred world. Why would we now run scared from the Savior who empowers us to live like this, and timidly assure people, in the words of a banner displayed at a Quaker event, "You can be Quaker without being Christian."<br /><br />It's the "...without being Christian" that I'm pointing to as symptomatic of the unradicalness of this approach. Friends originated with a movement to separate Jesus and his good news from the religion industry. We chose Jesus. What breaks my heart is that some now prefer their own new religion industry, tastefully enhanced to be as inoffensive as possible. The word "radical" itself has become cheapened in the service of this enhancement.<br /><br />But all of us Friends are descended from that same original passionate movement, so we have a claim (I hope) on each other's attention. My vision of Christian Quaker community worldwide is that some of us in every corner of the Quaker world will continue to advocate for genuinely radical faith and practice as a crucial part of our prophetic vocation in the larger Body of Christ. Others will focus on our connections with people who are tentative, less certain, skeptical, experimental, and perhaps especially those wounded by authoritarian religiosity of all varieties. The conversations we continue to have with each other will continue to be important, as long as space remains for those who are focused on the needs of the 99% of the world who've never heard of us and have no stake in our internal debates. There is still a Lamb's War to fight, and for that struggle we need people who recognize the relationship between all bondages--spiritual, social, economic, political. I can't imagine how we engage in that struggle by denying the Lamb.Johan Maurerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13771067774042071617noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7217199.post-42549039585362524252012-08-05T15:05:12.039-07:002012-08-05T15:05:12.039-07:00Your comments regarding Britain Yearly Meeting (an...Your comments regarding Britain Yearly Meeting (and perhaps all liberal Quaker Meetings) leave me with the feeling that you have decided that they have abandoned Jesus' vision for humankind. <br /><br />As a liberal Quaker who also identifies myself as a Christian, I believe liberal Quakerism is fulfilling Jesus' vision. This vision sees the spirit of unity, peace, and love that was so evident in Jesus, spreading to the hearts of all humankind. I can't imagine Jesus caring whether people who accept his way, call themselves "Christian" or not.<br /><br />My very liberal Quaker meeting is welcoming to all. We have very Christ-centered Friends, and we run the gambit of every other label that's out there. But there is a unity of Spirit among us in that same vision of a world transformed one heart at a time through the original message of love and forgiveness exemplified in Jesus.<br /><br />Liberal Quakers do see the Inner Light that Jesus possessed as progressive and able to reach all in a form that they can grasp. Yet, the result within the heart is the same. It brings us together into the truth of our Oneness and will transform this world one day.Howard Brodnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7217199.post-45333305571975118652012-08-05T14:57:37.407-07:002012-08-05T14:57:37.407-07:00Friends, I'm not a betting man, but if I were,...Friends, I'm not a betting man, but if I were, I would make a few bets about Indiana Y.M. is it keeps on its<br />present course. First, the mission and service programs will not be "restarted" after a one-year gap. This just can't be done. Second, some monthly meetings are likely to be internally splintered. Third, disputes about the yearly meeting property are inevitable. As I said before, why not wait for sense of the meeting before deciding? It seems to me that Indiana Y.M. is deciding what to do as a political body, not as a body of Christ.<br /> Sometimes we humans simply don't have the answers to problems.<br />Can't we admit that? Jeremy MottJeremy Mottnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7217199.post-61384224742651865212012-08-05T14:44:38.419-07:002012-08-05T14:44:38.419-07:00Johan, your questions about British are completely...Johan, your questions about British are completely loaded questions, as I'm sure you realize. That does not mean that the questions should not be asked or answered. Besides, many American liberal Friends might well ask themselves the same or similar questions.<br />I would add a few things. Mainly this: there are not just evangelical Christians, but also liberal Christians, with the Society of Friends. Don't we also deserve a place? Of course, all Christian Friends must speak up for themselves, if they wish to be recognized. If British Friends will not recognize their those who believe in Christ as the Light, the true God Within, these folks must take up their own cause. Is there any reason to think that with persistence they will not succeed?<br /> I think you have good reason to be pleased with Northwest Y.M., especially in light of developments in Indiana Y.M. It seems to me that Indiana Y.M. never came to a true sense of the meeting on what to do.<br />Sometimes coming to a sense of the meeting on something important can take a long time----maybe even 15 or 20 years---and at the end of that time, God might put a solution in front of us (or maybe not). In the meanwhile, there is nothing to do except to wait upon the Lord. Decisions like this should be made on God's schedule, not ours. <br /> Peace to all Friends, Jeremy MottJeremy Mottnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7217199.post-89896741723660889842012-08-03T10:58:50.715-07:002012-08-03T10:58:50.715-07:00I have it on now. The lyrics are making me smile!I have it on now. The lyrics are making me smile!Johan Maurerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13771067774042071617noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7217199.post-85509595585635894972012-08-03T10:54:51.292-07:002012-08-03T10:54:51.292-07:00This post recalled to me one of my favorite early ...This post recalled to me one of my favorite early XTC songs Cynical Days: <br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzRUsgf2ZNs<br />Positively,<br />Mary LindaFriendly Mamahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12958152969639229916noreply@blogger.com